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Long wait to be disappointed!
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71 posts in this topic

18 minutes ago, MDBLAW said:

Thanks Red, I don’t enjoy arguing with anyone about a topic as childish as card collecting or card grading. Let none of us forget that we are engaging in a kids hobby and although there can be considerable amounts of money at stake, companies like CSG are just trying to offer a service to all of us. The coming months will tell the tale of exactly who rises to the top of the card grading hierarchy. I’m betting on CSG because I believe they’re doing things in a professional and meticulous manner. Still, they have some kinks to work out of their system.

There is room for PSA, SGC, BGS, and CSG in collecting and all do a great job IMO. You just have to be aware of their grading scales and each company tries their hardest to stay within those standards. I don't trust HGA because they don't have a rubric that shows you how they grade. The issue I have with CSG is that they tend to be very lenient with cards graded below CSG 8, but as a consumer I know that going into a purchase. Their rubric allows wear on corners much more than other grading companies, but as long as they are consistent it doesn't bother me.

The problem I have with CSG at the moment is they are not being fully transparent about how many cards they have in backlog. I personally know people that submitted over a thousand cards for bulk. People are already getting upset and they haven't even gotten into the April 1st submissions when PSA closed. CSG took on too many cards and are not prepared for this. This happened to SGC last year on a smaller scale and people are still holding a grudge against them. Unless CSG stops submissions and catches up, they will never become a trusted grader. I want them to succeed, but it may be already too late. People won't accept 1 year turnaround times for bulk when they though it was 60 days when they submitted.

Edited by redfoxdutchman
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16 minutes ago, redfoxdutchman said:

There is room for PSA, SGC, BGS, and CSG in collecting and all do a great job IMO. You just have to be aware of their grading scales and each company tries their hardest to stay within those standards. I don't trust HGA because they don't have a rubric that shows you how they grade. The issue I have with CSG is that they tend to be very lenient with cards graded below CSG 8, but as a consumer I know that going into a purchase. Their rubric allows wear on corners much more than other grading companies, but as long as they are consistent it doesn't bother me.

The problem I have with CSG at the moment is they are not being fully transparent about how many cards they have in backlog. I personally know people that submitted over a thousand cards for bulk. People are already getting upset and they haven't even gotten into the April 1st submissions when PSA closed. CSG took on too many cards and are not prepared for this. This happened to SGC last year on a smaller scale and people are still holding a grudge against them. Unless CSG stops submissions and catches up, they will never become a trusted grader. I want them to succeed, but it may be already too late. People won't accept 1 year turnaround times for bulk when they though it was 60 days when they submitted.

I disagree, since PSA had monumental submissions and an equivalent backlog, there are still diehards who are still waiting to grade with them when they reopen... that says a lot so I believe CSG can and will be a trusted grader as well despite the backlog and all that comes along with it. 

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8 minutes ago, ItismeH said:

I disagree, since PSA had monumental submissions and an equivalent backlog, there are still diehards who are still waiting to grade with them when they reopen... that says a lot so I believe CSG can and will be a trusted grader as well despite the backlog and all that comes along with it. 

PSA has diehards and people on the registry. CSG can't afford to have the same backlogs. They don't have the same ROI and customers that used them for decades that will be patient with them. Sure there are a few CGC fanboys that will cut them slack, but that is not the majority if submitters. The majority of people who submitted with CSG did it because it was cheap and they thought they would get back their cards in a relatively quick turnaround time. I can already see the frustration on forums and twitter. People did not expect a 1 year turnaround time when they submitted at the stated 60 days bulk. 

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58 minutes ago, redfoxdutchman said:

PSA has diehards and people on the registry. CSG can't afford to have the same backlogs. They don't have the same ROI and customers that used them for decades that will be patient with them. Sure there are a few CGC fanboys that will cut them slack, but that is not the majority if submitters. The majority of people who submitted with CSG did it because it was cheap and they thought they would get back their cards in a relatively quick turnaround time. I can already see the frustration on forums and twitter. People did not expect a 1 year turnaround time when they submitted at the stated 60 days bulk. 

This. Their selling point was speed. The resell isn't there, no registry, etc. With that gone, no reason to use the service. Wait as long or longer for a lower resell when you're sending them in expecting faster turnaround to compensate for lower price with volume.

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3 hours ago, redfoxdutchman said:

I grade with all the major companies and I think they all do a good job. SGC 10's are not worth PSA 7's. Please give examples of this. I will give you real examples below to show you that you need to research before making assertions. 2018 Hoops Luka Doncic #268 sells a lot. In a PSA 10 it goes for about $300 to $350 typically. PSA 9's go for $120 to $130. SGC 10's go for $180 to $220. So SGC 10's do sell for more than PSA 9's typically. Please prove me wrong and don't use one fluke example. I picked a card that hsell frequently. In fact SGC 9.5's sell for the same price as a PSA 9 for that Luka. Sometimes less, sometimes more.

Edit: Want a baseball example? Ronald Acuna 2018 Topps Chrome #193. PSA 10's are about $300, PSA 9's are $120, SGC 10's are $180 to $200. Do I need to go on? Find examples where a PSA 7 and SGC 10 are the same. 

Lets use facts with proof...

Ronald Acuna SGC 10 sold for $289 https://www.ebay.com/itm/144018658101?hash=item21882e5335:g:e4kAAOSwLEBghAzf

A PSA 10 goes for $800

The Luca went for $159 https://www.ebay.com/itm/233961924121?hash=item367937a619:g:FesAAOSwHRRgcQk~

PSA goes for $272 https://www.psacard.com/auctionprices/basketball-cards/2018-panini-hoops/luka-doncic/summary/2662841

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6 minutes ago, RKgant said:

And...OK.... so the "SGC 10 goes for a PSA 7" bit was out of line. The SGC 10s are actually going for PSA 9 prices.... that still a 50% drop for one grade.

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And that was my point RK. That by downgrading me at least one full point, they cost me several hundred dollars over what my card should have graded at. When I get it back from CSG, which is supposed to be tomorrow according to their tracking, I will take a picture of it and post it. Then you guys can give me some input as to what you think it should’ve graded at. I appreciate and value your opinions.

Edited by MDBLAW
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1 hour ago, RKgant said:

I can cherry pick data as well. Here is a Luka SGC that sold for $275 2018-19 Hoops #268 Luka Doncic Rookie Card SGC 10 Mavericks 💎💎 | eBay

Where did a Serpia refractor PSA 10 go for $800? The last three sales in May were $510, $465, $475. The last two Serpia PSA 9's sold for $249 and $160. So a SGC 10 is more expensive than a PSA 9 in almost every single case. Yes you can find outliers, I can even find cases where a SGC 10 outlsold a PSA 10, but it is not common. 

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1 hour ago, RKgant said:

And...OK.... so the "SGC 10 goes for a PSA 7" bit was out of line. The SGC 10s are actually going for PSA 9 prices.... that still a 50% drop for one grade.

SGC 10's sell for between PSA 9 and PSA 10's now. If you actually have been paying attention recently, Sports Card Investor and other people have been pumping SGC. Their prices are rising and rightfully so. SGC 9.5's are starting to sell for just as much and over PSA 9's the last few days as well. Here is a Topps Kobe Bryant PSA 9 and a SGC 9.5. They basically sold for the same price within a day and both on auction.

1996 Topps #138 Kobe Bryant RC Rookie Card PSA 9 HOF Mint Lakers | eBay

1996-97 Topps #138 Kobe Bryant Lakers RC Rookie HOF SGC 9.5 " NICELY CENTERED " | eBay

 

Edited by redfoxdutchman
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6 hours ago, redfoxdutchman said:

This is absolutely not true, but you can pretend it is. SGC grades cards very fairly and they are pretty tough. If you are talking about ROI, that is fine. a SGC 10 may be worth a PSA 9, but that has to do with the slab and not the card in the slab. BTW CSG may grade 9 and 9.5 grades tough, but they are absolutely much easier on 6 and 7's. For vintage CSG is closer to BVG, which makes sense since that is where there lead grader comes from. 

Have you graded with SGC? The answer is no and you are pulling this "information" from your @!#$!@$#.

Rubbish, I have seen many horrendously bad grades in sgc holders. 8.5's with no good corners and surface issues... all bad. Furthermore, SGC SLABS ARE KNOWN TO DAMAGE CARDS!!! LOOK IT UP. NEVER USE SGC.... And the market has responded. They will be out of business soon if they persist at $75 per card.  Sad, because I think their grading scale makes the most sense. To bad they suck at utilizing it...

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1 hour ago, MDBLAW said:

And that was my point RK. That by downgrading me at least one full point, they cost me several hundred dollars over what my card should have graded at. When I get it back from CSG, which is supposed to be tomorrow according to their tracking, I will take a picture of it and post it. Then you guys can give me some input as to what you think it should’ve graded at. I appreciate and value your opinions.

Make sure to take pictures straight on front and back and also a few at an angle. Many surface issues can't be seen unless you have proper lighting and at a perfect angle. 

One thing to also consider is CSG seems to grade MUCH harsher on centering than other grading companies. A PSA 10 can have up to 60/40 centering and a CSG must have 55/45 centering to be a 9 and 60/40 will get a 8 or 8.5. You might want to see CSG grading standards, it may help you understand how they grade. I typically choose grading companies that suit my card the best. For instance if my card has strong corners and weak centering, I will choose PSA. PSA wants every corner to be perfect for a high grade. If I have a card that has weaker corners, but great centering I would choose SGC. Each company looks for different things. With CSG they really emphasize centering and surface condition. Picking a grading company for your individual card is more important than just using one company if you want the best ROI.

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1 minute ago, Brandon Melnick said:

Rubbish, I have seen many horrendously bad grades in sgc holders. 8.5's with no good corners and surface issues... all bad. Furthermore, SGC SLABS ARE KNOWN TO DAMAGE CARDS!!! LOOK IT UP. NEVER USE SGC.... And the market has responded. They will be out of business soon if they persist at $75 per card.  Sad, because I think their grading scale makes the most sense. To bad they suck at utilizing it...

I have seen many horrific grades in PSA, CSG, and BGS slabs. There are a few cases of SGC slab issues, but I have never encountered any in my 50 slabs I own and have graded. The only damaged card I have ever received back from a grading company so far was PSA. Does that mean all PSA slabs damage cards? SGC is doing extremely well and won't be out of business. They grade 4000 cards a day and make huge profits. Show me some examples of these 8.5's. I will show you some pathetic CSG slabs if you can show me SGC one's.

 

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11 minutes ago, redfoxdutchman said:

I have seen many horrific grades in PSA, CSG, and BGS slabs. There are a few cases of SGC slab issues, but I have never encountered any in my 50 slabs I own and have graded. The only damaged card I have ever received back from a grading company so far was PSA. Does that mean all PSA slabs damage cards? SGC is doing extremely well and won't be out of business. They grade 4000 cards a day and make huge profits. Show me some examples of these 8.5's. I will show you some pathetic CSG slabs if you can show me SGC one's.

 

I also have seen many bad grades in psa cases, but not on the % level of SGC. 

NO, SGC CASES DAMAGE CARDS. THE LITERAL ACT OF ENCASING A CARD IN AN SGC CASE IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS AS THE CASES ARE KNOWN TO DAMAGE EDGES OF CARDS. I 'm not speaking about human error. But a horrible holder design. Very widely documented and photographed. And seemingly a higher than normal # of SGC cards getting reholdder submitted come back ungraded and as altered...

Edited by Brandon Melnick
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2 hours ago, Yeahiwasder4dat said:

This. Their selling point was speed. The resell isn't there, no registry, etc. With that gone, no reason to use the service. Wait as long or longer for a lower resell when you're sending them in expecting faster turnaround to compensate for lower price with volume.

To be fair, CSG just started grading sports cards in February. Those looking for speed in this circus market right now along with some greed mixed in got a rude awakening.

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5 minutes ago, Brandon Melnick said:

I also have seen many bad grades in psa cases, but not on the % level of SGC. 

NO, SGC CASES DAMAGE CARDS. THE LITERAL ACT OF ENCASING A CARD IN AN SGC CASE IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS AS THE CASES ARE KNOWN TO DAMAGE EDGES OF CARDS. I 'm not speaking about human error. But a horrible holder design. Very widely documented and photographed. And seemingly a higher than normal # of SGC cards getting reholdder submitted come back ungraded and as altered...

Well I am over 50/50 of no damage and will continue to use them since I collect vintage. I have seen two or three examples of the damage because of sharp edges left on the black casing, but I haven't seen any on my holders and I checked through magnification. I have a bulk order through CSG and it is just reminding me of PSA right now where my cards seem like they will never get back to me. Every card I have had graded by every company so far has been pretty fair and consistent. I have a few cards that I feel should have been higher or lower, but not more than a grade. 

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5 hours ago, ItismeH said:

To be fair, CSG just started grading sports cards in February. Those looking for speed in this circus market right now along with some greed mixed in got a rude awakening.

In this case I think I overestimated their ability to have situational awareness. If you look at HGA, regardless of their grading they only take subs equal to what they can pump out. Quick turnaround. SGC jacked price up, and is actively playing with the price with a current turnaround of 20-25 days according to the sub I did yesterday. 

CSG? They watched what happened to every other company, didn't take notes and buried themselves in cards. Now they're months behind on opening mail, turn around is through the roof, they're holding cards hostage, and people are getting mad.

Seems like a cash grab to me. Get as many subs as possible in while the market is hot regardless of it taking a year or more to do them. Screw the customer, just lock in that money.

That's not to say they couldn't turn it around, but I kept thinking why not prevent this instead of having to deal with the fallout. As they say, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." Not only will they have to scramble to try to get a grip on subs that they have, but I'm sure they've lost some repeat business over this by burning customers. People expecting 3 calendar month turnaround now looking at possibly double or triple that.

Edited by Yeahiwasder4dat
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22 minutes ago, Yeahiwasder4dat said:

In this case I think I overestimated their ability to have situational awareness. If you look at HGA, regardless of their grading they only take subs equal to what they can pump out. Quick turnaround. SGC jacked price up, and is actively playing with the price with a current turnaround of 20-25 days according to the sub I did yesterday. 

CSG? They watched what happened to every other company, didn't take notes and buried themselves in cards. Now they're months behind on opening mail, turn around is through the roof, they're holding cards hostage, and people are getting mad.

Seems like a cash grab to me. Get as many subs as possible in while the market is hot regardless of it taking a year or more to do them. Screw the customer, just lock in that money.

I'm not saying you're wrong or I'm right, but no one saw the big PSA shutdown coming which created the perfect storm and played a huge role in where the world of card grading is right now. All I know for myself personally, is that I never have and most likely never will make any submissions to PSA. They have been in the grading world since the early 90's and have grown so big but at the same time got too greedy, have failed customers in so many ways and their customer service is basically non-existent. 

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1 minute ago, ItismeH said:

I'm not saying you're wrong or I'm right, but no one saw the big PSA shutdown coming which created the perfect storm and played a huge role in where the world of card grading is right now. All I know for myself personally, is that I never have and most likely never will make any submissions to PSA. They have been in the grading world since the early 90's and have grown so big but at the same time got too greedy, have failed customers in so many ways and their customer service is basically non-existent. 

PSA closing subs is a big issue that I'm sure threw everyone for a loop. It blew my mind that they didn't really seem to acknowledge that. Then when I saw the price increase I was shocked. I couldn't believe it was so small.

PSA isn't special to me. I've seen some questionable 10s come from them and then you have the whole thing with people buying their cards, trimming, and resubbing through the same consignment company. They're dirty. Unfortunately they offer some services that no one else does like pack grading. 

At some point people began caring more about the number on the slab instead of the card inside. I'd take a 9.5 BGS or CGC card over PSA 10 any day. 

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