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More 10 grades
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24 posts in this topic

On 5/16/2022 at 5:22 PM, Mark Aho said:

Y'all might wanna give out a few more 10 gem mints, your on the cusp of taking over the grading industry but the lack of 10's is what's holding you back.

How can a lack of 10s be holding them back? HGA, GAI, GMA, ASA, BCCG, KSA, in no particular order, are all holder brands that issued disproportionate numbers of "10" grade cards. None of those took over the industry...

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CSG is different, they are established in comics and currency. What I see is PSA, who I don't like is #1 in cards. PSA hands out plenty of 10s, I think if CSG would give out just a handful more 10 gem mints, not 10 perfects, they would catch up in a hurry. Don't get me wrong, I am totally for CSG.

Edited by Mark Aho
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On 5/16/2022 at 6:40 PM, Mark Aho said:

CSG is different, they are established in comics and currency. What I see is PSA, who I don't like is #1 in cards. PSA does a 9 or a 10, I think if CSG would give out just a handful more 10's they would catch up in a hurry. Don't get me wrong, I am totally for CSG.

I sincerely believe that CU is the leader in basically every category, because they have the tightest registry requirements and the best membership events.

PCGS has Long Beach, among other trade shows and dinners for members to attend. I've never been invited to anything of the sort by NGC.

NGC's Registry awards allow you (last time I checked) to submit PCGS graded coins. That means that NGC members have no incentive to seek out NGC slabs, since PCGS ones sell for more AND are eligible for the NGC registry.

I figure that, with CSG establishing Registry awards, they immediately leapfrog all other sportcard TPGs. So, the question to decide is whether to risk a soft #2 slot for a 5-10% chance of passing PSA for #1 or invest in solidification of #2 by allowing PSA cards to be entered into the CSG Registry awards.

Another thing to consider:

CGC basically grades TCG style cards, focusing on Pokémon and M:tG. The standard sized non-sport have no home within the CSG/CGC family. By alienating this segment, you lose bulk business to the other random alternate companies.

If CSG wants to stick around, unlike SGC 1.0, they need to, effectively, grade any set that Topps manufactures. That is a minimal standard.

Anyway, if they do want to play the grade inflation game, CSG needs to either obfuscate the entire process or present near absolute clarity in the process. Either extreme works. Walking the line doesn't. 

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On 5/17/2022 at 1:22 AM, Mark Aho said:

All I know is I've sent a number of graded orders in to csg and I've received a number of 9.5 gem mints. The last order I sent in I got 2 gem mints out of 27 cards because now they have a new 9.5 mint+ level. Don't get me wrong, I want CSG to thrive but I wish they would help me out along the way.

Screen your cards better.  They are providing a service that is meant to be impartial.  Their job is not to help you out by tossing you more 10s.

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Csg gem rate is is like 5% less the psa, especially with the new centering grading scale change, Its almost the same. Graders dont give grades they grade your card! you send them a gem 10 and they'll grade it a gem 10..there isnt a conspiracy against your cards and giving out gems for cards that dont meet the grading criteria will destroy csg. A lot of collectors want accurate grades and consistency and dont wanna be gifted a 10.  It doesnt matter if ya sent in 27 or 2700 it just shows your really bad at screening your cards. Lupe magnifiers can be found on ebay for $5 and centering tool for less. Good luck  check out subhub grading on youtube he's real good at screening cards when he does reveals for different graders  it helped me a lot 

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I've found PSA is getting tougher, again. (They seem to go through cycles.) I think it might be related to Kevin Lenane taking over as President. His philosophy might be geared more toward collectors, rather than speculators. Heck, they have enough business now to do it.

It could *also* be that all the "investors" (fund managers who decided to rotate into a new asset class) are requesting grade validations on PSA 10s at much higher rates than before.

This is why I liked the old CSG system. I felt that by being accurate and consistent (tough is the word often used), they would create a new standard for grading and force other companies to do better. It seems they accomplished that... and decided to be like everyone else around the time they got traction.

I don't mind the new label. I understand the decision to remove subgrades. I appreciate the choice to move 9.5 to 10.

That said, they should have just done the ridiculous and made three tiers of 10:

Gem Mint 10 (black color)

Pristine 10 (silver with one star; back would denote what fell short of perfect)

Perfect 10 (gold with two stars; back would show all 10s)

Now, people would say this is confusing. They're probably right. However, it would have prevented the perceived need to lower grading standards to "adjust to the industry."

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On 5/22/2022 at 1:46 PM, northkorea said:

I've found PSA is getting tougher, again. (They seem to go through cycles.) I think it might be related to Kevin Lenane taking over as President. His philosophy might be geared more toward collectors, rather than speculators. Heck, they have enough business now to do it.

It could *also* be that all the "investors" (fund managers who decided to rotate into a new asset class) are requesting grade validations on PSA 10s at much higher rates than before.

This is why I liked the old CSG system. I felt that by being accurate and consistent (tough is the word often used), they would create a new standard for grading and force other companies to do better. It seems they accomplished that... and decided to be like everyone else around the time they got traction.

I don't mind the new label. I understand the decision to remove subgrades. I appreciate the choice to move 9.5 to 10.

That said, they should have just done the ridiculous and made three tiers of 10:

Gem Mint 10 (black color)

Pristine 10 (silver with one star; back would denote what fell short of perfect)

Perfect 10 (gold with two stars; back would show all 10s)

Now, people would say this is confusing. They're probably right. However, it would have prevented the perceived need to lower grading standards to "adjust to the industry."

This is actually the point I was trying to make. I too appreciated the old CSG system with the 9.5 gem mint and the hard to get 10 pristine. My concern now is that the 9.5 mint+ has taken the place of 9.5 gem mint, and are there going to be enough 10 gem mints now. I totally think that the perfect 10 should be extremely hard to achieve and I do like that CSG is a tough grader. I think this might add to your point on the 3 levels of 10's with the 9.5 mint+ having been added to the new grading system.

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On 5/22/2022 at 11:24 AM, Mark Aho said:

This is actually the point I was trying to make. I too appreciated the old CSG system with the 9.5 gem mint and the hard to get 10 pristine. My concern now is that the 9.5 mint+ has taken the place of 9.5 gem mint, and are there going to be enough 10 gem mints now. I totally think that the perfect 10 should be extremely hard to achieve and I do like that CSG is a tough grader. I think this might add to your point on the 3 levels of 10's with the 9.5 mint+ having been added to the new grading system.

The black 9.5 Mint+, at most, might encompass the worst green 9.5 Gem (9.5*3/9) and best green 9 Mint (9.5+*2/9*2). They might exclude one of the two or certain permutations, but it seems they will have no shortage of black 10s, since the range is so wide now.

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For myself, I have been averaging 60-70% gem rates on my last few subs under the old system.  I would figure that the 60-70% will now be the combo of 10s and 9.5s, where hopefully more of those will be 10s than 9.5s, lol.  

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On 5/23/2022 at 10:09 AM, AM Cards said:

For myself, I have been averaging 60-70% gem rates on my last few subs under the old system.  I would figure that the 60-70% will now be the combo of 10s and 9.5s, where hopefully more of those will be 10s than 9.5s, lol.  

If your previous rate was 60-70% 9.5, what was your rate on 9s? Assuming the green 9-10 rate was ~90%, your black 9.5-10 rate might be closer to 90% than you think.

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On 5/25/2022 at 11:02 AM, northkorea said:

If your previous rate was 60-70% 9.5, what was your rate on 9s? Assuming the green 9-10 rate was ~90%, your black 9.5-10 rate might be closer to 90% than you think.

My black 9.5-10 rate on my latest sub was about 55% out of 52 cards.  However, I only got 4 10s and a ton of 9.5s.  Wasn't too happy.  But maybe I've gotten complacent and didn't check things over as well before sending this time.  Not sure if I'll be sending much after the price change however.  

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On 6/1/2022 at 5:56 PM, AM Cards said:

My black 9.5-10 rate on my latest sub was about 55% out of 52 cards.  However, I only got 4 10s and a ton of 9.5s.  Wasn't too happy.  But maybe I've gotten complacent and didn't check things over as well before sending this time.  Not sure if I'll be sending much after the price change however.  

The way I see it, less people submitting "under $100" cards can only help the overall value of CSG graded items.

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On 6/1/2022 at 10:56 PM, AM Cards said:

My black 9.5-10 rate on my latest sub was about 55% out of 52 cards.  However, I only got 4 10s and a ton of 9.5s.  Wasn't too happy.  But maybe I've gotten complacent and didn't check things over as well before sending this time.  Not sure if I'll be sending much after the price change however.  

So... Were these modern cards? You inspected the cards fairly well before submitting? If so, then yeah, I wouldn't be happy either. IMO this may really hurt CSG. I grade cards to boost value. A 9 for most ultra modern cards tends to sell at the raw price, so not a good result. A 9.5 Gem Mint (green label) was what we all wanted. I sent in about 150 cards to CSG and got probably 60+ Gem 9.5 (Green label) or better (including a few Pristines) because I screened them very carefully. With the new label, Gem Mint should be Gem Mint and not harder to achieve than the 9.5 green Gem. I'm about to send another order. If I only get about 8-15% Gem Mint 10 when my previous Gem rate was 40% or so, then I will never submit with CSG again because I'm not gaining value. People will look at 9.5 Mint + and say oh, that's not even a Gem. I'll buy a BGS 9.5 Gem, PSA 10 Gem, etc. instead...

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Screen your cards properly and they'll grade them fairly. 

My 54 card sub that just shipped:

10: 16 cards
9.5: 15 cards
9: 10 cards
8.5: 8 cards
8: 2 cards
7.5: 2 cards
5.5 1 card

Of the cards that graded below a 9, six of them are legit vintage from pre-1980 that I knew would be lucky to get above an 8 (and one did).   There were very few surprises outside of about +- .5 grade on many cards. 

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On 6/3/2022 at 12:44 PM, PuraVida said:

People will look at 9.5 Mint + and say oh, that's not even a Gem. I'll buy a BGS 9.5 Gem, PSA 10 Gem, etc. instead...

That *might* be true. The counterpoint is that they *might* opt for a CSG 9.5 MINT+ over a PSA 9 MINT. I *think* if CSG is able to construct a scenario where people desire a CSG 9.5 as superior to a PSA 9, they're on the right path.

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When I hear people complaining about not getting Gem Mint grades from CSG, the first thought I have is “Did you send your best cards to them or the ones you had leftover from your PSA stash. All of the companies grade 90-95% of ultra modern card 9 or higher. 
 

stop sending your less than perfect cards to CSG hoping they will miss those slight imperfections. CSG does not grade harder! It appears that way because of the cards that are sent. As more people stop using CSG as a backup to PSA, we will see their numbers level off. 

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On 6/3/2022 at 9:17 PM, oluckydayo said:

Screen your cards properly and they'll grade them fairly. 

My 54 card sub that just shipped:

10: 16 cards
9.5: 15 cards
9: 10 cards
8.5: 8 cards
8: 2 cards
7.5: 2 cards
5.5 1 card

Of the cards that graded below a 9, six of them are legit vintage from pre-1980 that I knew would be lucky to get above an 8 (and one did).   There were very few surprises outside of about +- .5 grade on many cards. 

Agreed, that's why I was asking if he screened them, and if they were modern. If they were all ultra modern and he submitted only his truly best cards and he only got an 8% Gem rate, then that's terrible. If that happened to me, I simply wouldn't submit with CSG again. I'm pretty picky with what I send in so I would expect a high Gem rate. If I can't get that on cards I expect to Gem, I won't sub with them. 

Having said that, I watched an unboxing of a big CSG order where a lot of ultra modern cards were sent in, and I know the submitter sent only his best. The vast majority were Gems, so I'm much less concerned now

As for yours, if you don't count the vintage, it looks like you had a gem rate of 33%? Were those ultra modern and well screened? That certainly sounds decent, but I would expect higher from my subs if I was very picky with what I sent in. 

My concern is if I would send in a sub of 100 cards and 50 got Gem Mint under the green label, and if I sent those same 100 cards and got 30 Gem Mint and 20 9.5 under the black label, that's a big net negative for us. Having the "10" is nice, but if it's so much harder to achieve (maybe takes 3x9.5 and 1x10 or better?) then that wouldn't be good. If the Gem standard is still what it was, then I'm very happy with the change.

On 6/4/2022 at 2:52 AM, northkorea said:

That *might* be true. The counterpoint is that they *might* opt for a CSG 9.5 MINT+ over a PSA 9 MINT. I *think* if CSG is able to construct a scenario where people desire a CSG 9.5 as superior to a PSA 9, they're on the right path.

Possibly. But PSA is considered king whether we like it or not (I don't) and it might be a stretch. That said, I am happy to have the 9.5 possibility if some of the previous 9s would be 9.5s under the new label. On the other hand, it seems like 9s will be devalued a bit...

On 6/4/2022 at 9:05 AM, The_Reverend2831694433746 said:

When I hear people complaining about not getting Gem Mint grades from CSG, the first thought I have is “Did you send your best cards to them or the ones you had leftover from your PSA stash. All of the companies grade 90-95% of ultra modern card 9 or higher. 
 

stop sending your less than perfect cards to CSG hoping they will miss those slight imperfections. CSG does not grade harder! It appears that way because of the cards that are sent. As more people stop using CSG as a backup to PSA, we will see their numbers level off. 

Yeah, this may be true. Lately all the cards I send in are going to CSG. Unless it's BOTH a very high value card and looks gem, then I send to PSA. Cheers,

--Kyle

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