CSG Ups Its Game with a New Label and Revised Grading Scale! 1 1

[PunsRTonsOfFun]

On 3/28/2022 at 10:23 AM, Scottish Punk said:

From what it looks like, and the board can correct me if I am wrong, is that the Mint+ is essentially a new grade.  What this means in actual grading will be interesting going forward. Since they have this new buffer between what is now a 9 and 10, will they hand out more 9.5s.  I I have a couple 9's with subs 9.5,9.5,9,8.5.  Surface being 8.5.  May take those out and check for prints/smudges and try them again. Also, have one with 10,9.5,9,9.  That seems like a shoe in for 9.5.  Since CSG isn't doing subs, I bet you will start seeing a lot of the "stronger" 9's become 9.5s especially since they aren't automatically making it a 9 because the sub grades tell them so.  We shall see how the market reacts to all this.  I am a collector, so 9's on modern cards are perfectly fine with me, those are Mint cards anyways.

I think this is their intention, however, Glen is right that they didn't change the grading scale definitions to match this. They're reholdering all legacy 9.5s Gems to new Gem 10 labels, but the scale definitions aren't the same. Unless, going forward, the Pristine definition IS the standard for the new CSG 10 Gem. Which, if that is the case, this change was a waste of time because so few cards will receive a 10 that people will stop sending cards to CSG. Collectors don't want a collection of 97% Mint+ cards and 3% Gem Mint.

[jyo1912]

On 3/25/2022 at 11:03 PM, Rocklin65s said:

@CGCRyan about the grading scale, can you please clarify how CSG cards will cross with the new system?

It's unclear to me what will get Mint+ 9.5. For example, would a Mint 9 with subgrades 9/9/9.5/10 bump to Mint+ 9.5? What about with subgrades 10/8.5/10/10? Or 9/8.5/9.5/9?

Perfect 10 > Perfect 10
Pristine 10 > Gem Mint 10
Gem Mint 9.5 > Gem Mint 10
? ? ? > Mint+ 9.5
Mint 9 > Mint 9

@RyanCSG Yes, with hundreds of cards to maybe get reslabbed, getting clarity on this is really important. I have 2 important questions to add to this: (1) what does a 9 grade w/ two 9.5 subs equate to in the new grading scale? Does that become the new 9.5 Mint+? (2) does the 10% member discount apply to the $5 reslab fee? This could save $100 on 200 cards. Thanks.

Edited March 28, 2022 by jyo1912

[CGCRyan]

On 3/28/2022 at 1:06 PM, jyo1912 said:

@RyanCSG Yes, with hundreds of cards to maybe get reslabbed, getting clarity on this is really important. I have 2 important questions to add to this: (1) what does a 9 grade w/ two 9.5 subs equate to in the new grading scale? Does that become the new 9.5 Mint+? (2) does the 10% member discount apply to the $5 reslab fee? This could save $100 on 200 cards. Thanks.

@jyo1912 I will ask and see what I can find out for you and the other members on this board.

[Legacy Man]

On 3/26/2022 at 11:50 AM, CGCRyan said:

@Legacy Man

The cards would get the same grade in the new black label if you send them in for the ReHolder Service. Any green Gem Mint 9.5s would cross to Gem Mint 10 in the new black label.

Thank You

[Rocklin65s]

@CGCRyan My concern about the new Mint+ 9.5 tier is that many of the previously graded 9s would now be a 9.5 in the new system. Actually, it seems like many cards 9 and under are now 0.5 or more off. Would this make all cards graded 9 and below qualify for CSG's free “Appearance Review” service to determine the correct grade?

https://www.csgcards.com/card-grading/csg-guarantee/

[micky 8]

On 3/28/2022 at 11:15 AM, Glen Campbell said:

I actually don’t have any cards that I feel would qualify to make the jump from 9.0 to 9.5.

I am just trying to make sense of the change.

if 20% of all submissions paid for subgrades, that is approx. 150k cards and roughly $1.5 million in revenue for CSG.  If, rough guess, 30% of old Mint 9.0 should qualify for the new 9.5 Mint+, I think it is that the collectors who already paid a premium to get their cards graded with subs should have to crack and resubmit to get what was already earned.

It really would be as simple as creating a one time conversion chart for cards with sub grades over to the new scale that actually created a space for the 9.5 Mint+.

In regards to me loving my old 9.5s, I am okay with the change to a 10.  I just want it to make sense and right now it doesn’t.

your right i think if you return your cards for reholder and you have subgrades they should change it over for free I think thats fair,at least thats half!  I been saying since the beggining of csg that there 9 is more like mint plus because there 9.5 is a gem mint, csg green 9's are sharp cards and beat out any 9, your 100% right but i guess they drew the line at the gem mint grade, they have alot of obstacles with an updated pop report exc.. i guess a 9 to a 9 isnt the worst issue even if some cards with higher subs might qualify for a mint plus the overall grade was still a 9 and a 9 it will stay apparently, its a huge transition im sure bgs thought about changing there scale but been doing it for too long, theres gonna be unhappy customers, some guys on this thread graded over a thousand cards and gotta pay reholder and shipping fees, thats a hurt!! 

[CGCRyan]

The CSG grading scale has been updated on the website to reflect the new definitions for each grade:

https://www.csgcards.com/card-grading/grading-scale/

[rthodges]

On 3/28/2022 at 11:23 AM, Scottish Punk said:

From what it looks like, and the board can correct me if I am wrong, is that the Mint+ is essentially a new grade.  What this means in actual grading will be interesting going forward. Since they have this new buffer between what is now a 9 and 10, will they hand out more 9.5s.  I I have a couple 9's with subs 9.5,9.5,9,8.5.  Surface being 8.5.  May take those out and check for prints/smudges and try them again. Also, have one with 10,9.5,9,9.  That seems like a shoe in for 9.5.  Since CSG isn't doing subs, I bet you will start seeing a lot of the "stronger" 9's become 9.5s especially since they aren't automatically making it a 9 because the sub grades tell them so.  We shall see how the market reacts to all this.  I am a collector, so 9's on modern cards are perfectly fine with me, those are Mint cards anyways.

The ratio we used to get 9.5’s are hopefully now going to be the ratio we get 10’s.  Seems like this makes more sense than the previous scale where basically 10’s just don’t exist before 1990.  HGA was doing this stingy nonsense as well, but they don’t have quality slabs or a proactive marketing team to rebound from this mistake.

It already appears as if CSG is going to become a strict version of SCG; same grading system, just harsher grading (55:45 allowed for one side only?!).  SGC uses the 9.5 Mt+ scale.

The important part is 10’s need to be achievable.  The hobby demands it, otherwise they just stop grading with them.

edit:  I stand corrected on the 55:45 rule.  Either they loosened up on it or I misread it a few days ago.

Edited March 29, 2022 by rthodges

[Dr. A]

On 3/28/2022 at 9:08 PM, CGCRyan said:

The CSG grading scale has been updated on the website to reflect the new definitions for each grade:

https://www.csgcards.com/card-grading/grading-scale/

Hi Ryan, can a purchased green label card (like from ebay) be sent in for reslab/relabel for the $5 cost? I am unsure if the $5 fee only applies to those that sent in their own cards they had graded. Thanks.

[CGCRyan]

On 3/28/2022 at 10:44 PM, Dr. A said:

Hi Ryan, can a purchased green label card (like from ebay) be sent in for reslab/relabel for the $5 cost? I am unsure if the $5 fee only applies to those that sent in their own cards they had graded. Thanks.

As long as you have an active CSG Associate membership or higher, you can send the cards in for the ReHolder Service. You would use the Online Submission Form, choose ReHolder Service and then enter in the card's certification # to add it to your submission.

[oluckydayo]

On 3/26/2022 at 10:57 AM, CGCRyan said:

I confirmed with our graders: For the ReHolder Service, all green label CSG cards graded 9 or below will get the same grade when crossed to the new black label. Gem Mint 9.5s in the green label will cross to Gem Mint 10 in the new black label. Pristine 10s would also be Gem Mint 10 in the new label.

Wanted to ask my question again in case it got lost in the shuffle above:

I have a question about the removal of subgrades from the label (something I agree with generally, though I would have placed them on the back).

Will those subgrades used to determine overall card grade still be available on the certification and pop report, even if not added to the slab itself?

I know part of the effort of what slows things down is the data entry of each into the report (a small amount of time per card, but multiplied by soon to be millions in total), but I think having the subs on the cert itself is a great benefit in this industry.

[oluckydayo]

On 3/26/2022 at 1:39 PM, Dr. A said:

Amazing. I took a chance with BGS (I was one of the first to submit to them) at their inception and about 20 years later I find PSA is the top grader since their cards command more. So I sent cards to PSA, but as you know the wait time for the last 2 years or so was disturbing.

So, I took a chance with CSG a year ago (again, I was one of the first to submit to them at their inception) and find apparent indecisiveness today...the green label and grading scale lasted a whole year.

I might as well pay for regrading at PSA instead of paying reholdering anywhere else. Not like I agree with all the grades anyway....and there are label errors.

Or maybe I should cash out and call it a day.

 

 

Those grades look pretty accurate from what your pictures show.   The low corners/surface/edge are apparent.

You might not agree with them, but they appear to be correct.

Edited March 29, 2022 by oluckydayo

[oluckydayo]

On 3/28/2022 at 10:29 PM, rthodges said:

The ratio we used to get 9.5’s are hopefully now going to be the ratio we get 10’s.  Seems like this makes more sense than the previous scale where basically 10’s just don’t exist before 1990.  HGA was doing this stingy nonsense as well, but they don’t have quality slabs or a proactive marketing team to rebound from this mistake.

It already appears as if CSG is going to become a strict version of SCG; same grading system, just harsher grading (55:45 allowed for one side only?!).  SGC uses the 9.5 Mt+ scale.

The important part is 10’s need to be achievable.  The hobby demands it, otherwise they just stop grading with them.

edit:  I stand corrected on the 55:45 rule.  Either they loosened up on it or I misread it a few days ago.

You're right on the 55:45.  That's the requirement for a 10 on the front (back is 75/25)

[rthodges]

On 3/29/2022 at 1:49 AM, oluckydayo said:

You're right on the 55:45.  That's the requirement for a 10 on the front (back is 75/25)

Yeah but it was 55:45 for one side only—the other dimension has to be 50:50.  A Youtuber captured this prior their recent update which loosened the policy.

Them not specifying now in writing means it can be 55:45 for both top/bottom and left/right.  I think that’s way more reasonable.

[kglo]

On 3/28/2022 at 11:15 AM, Glen Campbell said:

I actually don’t have any cards that I feel would qualify to make the jump from 9.0 to 9.5.

I am just trying to make sense of the change.

if 20% of all submissions paid for subgrades, that is approx. 150k cards and roughly $1.5 million in revenue for CSG.  If, rough guess, 30% of old Mint 9.0 should qualify for the new 9.5 Mint+, I think it is that the collectors who already paid a premium to get their cards graded with subs should have to crack and resubmit to get what was already earned.

It really would be as simple as creating a one time conversion chart for cards with sub grades over to the new scale that actually created a space for the 9.5 Mint+.

In regards to me loving my old 9.5s, I am okay with the change to a 10.  I just want it to make sense and right now it doesn’t.

I think the point about the conversion scale with subgrades makes a lot of sense - because of the introduction of the new "Mint+" (new 9.5) grade, there were old green-label 9's that surely would have met the Mint+ (new 9.5) scale.  Whilst there is no perfect solution - at least, for the customers who have submitted with subgrades previously, there is a feasible path forward with available information.

Something like:

If total subgrades of the old label are less than 0.5 off from qualifying for an old 9.5 (Gem-Mint) (for example, 2x 9.5, 2x 9.0) - then these should automatically be mapped to the new 9.5 "Mint+".  Aside from that, they will be map from an old 9 to a new 9.

At least, this seems fair to customers whom have paid for the service of subgrades previously. 

[KBost33]

Just talked to CSG, IF YOU HAVE ORDERS THAT ARE AT CSG THAT WERE FINISHED BEFORE THE ANNOUNCEMENT YOU RE STILL GONNA GET CHARGED FOR THE SUB-GRADES!!! THAT IS AN ABSOLUTE JOKE SHOW. ANOTHER SCREW YOU, TO THOSE OF US WHO BOUGHT INTO CSG. I HAVE SPENT $1000'S WITH CSG, AND NOW THEY ARE CHANGING LABEL, AND NOW SUB-GRADES DON'T MATTER, BUT LET US STILL CHARGE YOU.  The lady on the phone said that she would forward my concern to Shane. 

CSG does not care about customers. If they did, they would WAVE every SUB-GRADE fee, for every ORDER that is still at CSG REGARDLESS of how long they have been sitting there at CSG plant. 

 

[KBost33]

On 3/27/2022 at 3:04 PM, Glen Campbell said:

@CGCRyan I have two questions:

1.  How does a card that previously received a Gem Mint 9.5 transfer to a Gem Mint 10 when the description on the website is EXACTLY the same for the old Gem Mint 9.5 and the new Mint+ 9.5?  The old Pristine 10 description is almost identical to the new Gem Mint 10.  If my Gem Mint 9.5 didn’t meet the criteria for a Pristine 10, how does it meet the new criteria for a Gem Mint 10?

 

2.  How does an old 9.5 Gem Mint with three 9.5 subs and one 9.0 sub equal a new 10 Gem Mint, but an old 9.0 Mint with two 9.5 subs and two 9.0 subs NOT equal a new Mint+ 9.5?  If there is only 0.5 grade difference on one sub grade between a new Gem Mint 10 and a new Mint 9, then what the heck qualifies for a Mint+ 9.5?  You literally cannot get any closer than that!!!

It so CSG can grab more cash from you. PLAN and simple. 

[Rocklin65s]

Can we submit a refund request for all paid subgrades since they are now obsolete? 

[Stelios1]

On 3/25/2022 at 1:31 PM, CGCRyan said:

Just in time for The MINT Collective, CSG is delivering a one-two punch: a fresh label along with market-friendly updates to its grading scale.

Certified Sports Guaranty® (CSG®) is excited to reveal its brand-new certification label! The bold yet refined design is the result of months of research and development, including market studies, focus groups and extensive testing. Green is gone in favor of a black, silver and gold palette that will complement — not compete with — the colors of any sports card.

LEAN MORE

They didn't really upgrade the slab. They just changed the design printed on the flip. The black borders with the hologram in the upper right corner and the yellow font is sharp. The curved corner grey-white text box, not so much. They should round off the interior corners of the white text box. Then they should cut down its height so that the white text box has the same length, but only goes up to about the bottom of where the number grade is currently. Then they should move the barcode and card number up, and change the font size of the grade number, while displaying it's condition (gem mint, mint, whatever), under it (or in another sharp configuration). And get rid of the dividing vertical line.

 

They can then put a CSG holographic, silver and yellow, strip under the white text box that spans the length of the white box, in addition to the one in the upper left corner. Or some other cool design that adds to security and spans the length of the white box. Next step, they should get new molds and sharpen the corners on the slab (to about the curvature of a SGC slab). It would then be the sharpest slab in existence.

 

The yellow and black really works well. But the large white text and rounded corners make it look like a child's toy. Curved corners work for coins, pokemon cards, comics, and money, but not for sports cards which emphasize sharpness.

[oluckydayo]

On 3/30/2022 at 1:40 PM, Stelios1 said:

They didn't really upgrade the slab. They just changed the design printed on the flip. The black borders with the hologram in the upper right corner and the yellow font is sharp. The curved corner grey-white text box, not so much. They should round off the interior corners of the white text box. Then they should cut down its height so that the white text box has the same length, but only goes up to about the bottom of where the number grade is currently. Then they should move the barcode and card number up, and change the font size of the grade number, while displaying it's condition (gem mint, mint, whatever), under it (or in another sharp configuration). And get rid of the dividing vertical line.

 

They can then put a CSG holographic, silver and yellow, strip under the white text box that spans the length of the white box, in addition to the one in the upper left corner. Or some other cool design that adds to security and spans the length of the white box. Next step, they should get new molds and sharpen the corners on the slab (to about the curvature of a SGC slab). It would then be the sharpest slab in existence.

 

The yellow and black really works well. But the large white text and rounded corners make it look like a child's toy. Curved corners work for coins, pokemon cards, comics, and money, but not for sports cards which emphasize sharpness.

I think the changes they made are to set the tone and style of the slab going forward.  Moving away from White/Green and to the black/gold is a pretty big adjustment.

Once they have that brand and style down and it's generally accepted and recognized by everyone there will always be room in the future to make subtle changes to things like format/layout and font.  That has happened at every other grading company over time.  

As for the round slabs, I like them and they're my personal favorite among the companies.